Coach Dan John is one of the top coaches that I follow. I find that his insight to training along with his ability to break things down for everybody is amazing.
I truly hope that you enjoy this interview.
Stephen: How did you get involved in Strength and Conditioning and Weight Lifting?
Dan John: I didn’t know it until I had been teaching for years, but a small decision in my youth had a massive impact on my life and athletic career. My birthday is about as late as you can get in August and the cut-off date for starting school was September 1.
As the youngest of six kids, and the fact that nobody held their kids back when I was growing up, there was no question that I would march off to kindergarten. And, nearly every day for the first month, I cried. I was the youngest in the class and far less mature, too. Now, for the record, I must have loved tanks because everything I drew had tanks in it. One of my clearest memories, and frankly there are few, of kindergarten is my teacher asking me to draw something else besides tanks. In fact, my mother had to come in to meet with the teacher to convince me to do something besides draw tanks.
Even then, I guess, I was consumed with size and power. However, as a boy and, in this case anyway, as a Celt, maturation was a long way away. While the other boys with Mediterranean heritages hit a growth spurt in the sixth grade and had facial hair by the ninth, I was lucky enough to not hit puberty until well into high school. I played ninth grade football at a 118 pounds and bulked up to 130 pounds as a sophomore. Honestly, I didn’t shave daily until my mid-twenties.
But, I wanted to be an athlete. Fortunately, I had right idea: I needed to lift weights. I caught the iron bug early when my brothers bought a weight set after our Aunt Florence died and left us a little money. We went to Sears and got the Ted Williams weightlifting set with 110 pounds. Frankly, I doubted I would ever lift those “big plates” that were 15 pounds each. For the record, I did….and a lot more.
Every month, I would walk over to the corner pharmacy and see if Strength and Health had come in. It was the only information available and it was perfect for me at that time. All the lifters were heroic, according to the articles, and lived on Hoffman’s Hi-Protein and drank the amazing Energol. Drugs were bad and clean living was the answer to all questions. Sure, I was young and believed it all, but I only mastered cynicism in my thirties.
My lifting program was simple and I am amazed how much I still keep the same structure. The Southwood Program,
· Four Lifts: Power Clean, Front Squat, Military Press and Bench Press
· A simple rep scheme of 8-6-4
· We lifted in little groups and when you made all 18 reps with all four lifts, you moved up into the next weight during the next workout.
The descending reps scheme was genius. It remains the cornerstone of my programming since then (1971) and the four lifts are still the best movements I know for superior athletic performance.
Throughout High School, I had a love affair with the Bench Press. I saved up literally every quarter I had for over a year to buy an adjustable Incline Bench Press. By this time, that original Ted Williams set had been expanded by “borrowing” plates from many of my neighbors. I could get 132 ½ pounds on the bar. So, nearly every morning I would arrive early to school and get some Bench Pressing in, then lifted after school with more Bench Pressing. At nights, I would train on our porch doing Inclines and a host of other movements.
I got very strong in the Bench Press! How strong? Let’s just say this: as a Senior in High School I was stronger in the Bench than when I was a Senior in college and the High Point Man on the Track and Field team. I was so strong in the Bench Press that kids from other schools would come by to see me nail the big lifts.
And, I weighed 162 pounds as a senior. I could easily Bench Press double bodyweight, but I was only a lean, mean Benching machine. When I finished high school, I knew that I simply had to “get bigger” to compete with the heavier college discus. I knew, too, that I had to learn the Olympic Lifts.
A guy at school told me that there was an Olympic lifting meet in San Francisco that weekend, so I drove my Honda 200 up there to see what was going on. During a break in the competition, I went to use the restroom. It was a small hallway and I had to make room for the guy coming out. His name was Dick Notmeyer and he changed my life.
Dick owned the Pacifica Barbell Club just over the hill from me. I got to talk with him and he said I should join up, but the fee was high: 25 cents a week. From saving all those quarters to a now paying a quarter a week for a gym fee is too poetic to miss.
The following Monday, I pulled up to a house and started having doubts. In a minute or so, Dick opened the garage door and took me into his back room gym. It was small, but filled with equipment. Starting that day, I began doing the Olympic lifts. Three days a week, I would be on the platform snatching and doing clean and jerks. Two days a week, I would step to the rack and do Front Squats and Jerks. That’s right: two to three hour workouts just doing two lifts. Dick told me to “eat more” and “eat more protein.” I did.
Four months later, I weighed 202 pounds. I went from 162 to 202 in four months. That’s ten pounds a month, two and a half pounds a week, nearly half a pound a day. Go to a local fast food place and order a quarter pound burger. Imagine slapping 160 on those on your body in four months.
I came home one evening and my brother, Gary, was visiting. I walked in and he simply looked up and said: “Holy shit.” That’s a bulking program.
Certainly, I grew larger in my career. Lifting as a 242 pound lifter, I would often let my weight go up to as heavy as 273 before a contest. And, no, my friends, that is not a good plan. But, the gems of bulking have been laid out for you here:
· Mastery of the basic multi-joint barbell movements.
· A commitment to getting stronger.
· Real improvements come when you squat seriously (sorry!)
· Bulking is best done in a short period.
· Finally, you need to be physically ready to bulk up. It’s not something a nine year old can do!
And, one caveat: we will be talking about Lean Body Mass here. Anyone, and it seems more like everyone, is bulking up today with a slothful lifestyle and massive amounts of cheap sugar. That’s easy. Bulking up, especially for long limbed guys, is tough!
Now, a caveat: I reported in the Fall to Skyline College at 202. For the next nine months, I held steady, although I steadily rose to 204 pounds. How did I go from 162 to 202 in four months, then basically stop progress for nine months? Simple. I started track and field with Coach Bob Lualhauti and he had us doing some running, some bounding, some sprints, some throwing, some of this and some of that. In other words, if you decide to do more than just add lean body mass, your progress is going to stop!
Stephen: Who do you turn to for furthering your training knowledge?
Dan John: Pavel, of course, Mike Boyle, Brett Jones, Gray Cook. From there, I feel comfortable calling a bunch of other people like Ethan Reeves and some others...
Stephen: What do you feel is a big misconceptions in the industry?
Dan John: Getting strong is hard to do. Now, losing fat is hard and so is gaining mass, but getting stronger is easy.
Stephen: If you could only teach one exercise what would it be any why?
Dan John: One arm press. You get everything you need in the movement, but I loathe this question as it is short sighted. It's the same as asking: "If you could die and come back as anyone in history..."
Stephen: How much do you think your formal education compares to your real life experience in the field?
Dan John: My formal education is in history and theology. Rarely in strength and conditioning can you learn from a book or a class. Yes, there are gems to a classroom environment, but you have to understand the context first.
Stephen: What do you find to be most challenging about your job?
Dan John: Well, now, it is simply dealing with people who read this or that but have little real information. So, we have experts now who will argue every single point and yet are clueless that their 135 pound squat is pathetic.
Stephen: What do you find to be most enjoyable about your job?
Dan John: Making progress and seeing others make progress...it's the secret to life.
Stephen: What advice do you have for people who may be trying to get into this field?
Dan John: Here is what I wrote before:
So there I am sitting at breakfast during discus camp when a very nice guy tells me that his son wants to write a book called Getting in Shape for the Martial Arts.
I'm always cranky before my third pot of coffee, so I simply blurted out, "The market is saturated. Charles Staley put together an all-encompassing Western style book, Pavel has a bunch of stuff from the Russian perspective, some other guy has a bunch of body weight exercise books, and then there are dozens of sites on the Internet where you can pick up a couple of million other books, too."
"Oh," said the dad... and then I felt bad. Your kid has a goal and some goon in a tank top gobbling eggs and coffee shoots down the dream.
I felt horrible so I softened things. I said, "You see, he'll need to add a fresh new perspective, something that will grab people, something that'll get them to his website."
"He doesn't have a website," said the dad.
"Okay, his articles."
None.
"Okay, his school or training hall."
None.
It was time to leave. I had to work out, but I offered this: "Tell him to drop by the cottage tonight; a group of us are meeting to talk about strength stuff."
About eight hours later, this young man appeared at the guesthouse, or "The Cottage" as we like to call it. Let's call him Doug, which isn't his real name, but it sounds like a nice name. If your name is Doug then you can know for certain that I'm not talking about you in this article. If it isn't Doug, keep reading.
The Cottage
For years, Doctor Tom Fahey and Pavel Tsatsouline had corresponded by email. Pavel and I had been talking for a few months about meeting together during discus camp and sharing some ideas.
Pavel, if you don't know, is an expert on strength training and flexibility. Tom is probably someone you know, but don't know that you know. He's the author of dozens of books — the standard texts for college physical education and fitness classes — and writes for the pulp bodybuilding trade. Tom can call up from memory any study ever made on sports, strength, nutrition, or sex. It was my great honor to introduce, in the flesh, Tom and Pavel.
So, Doug walks in on Dan, Tom, and Pavel discussing 5000 meter running and deadlifts, the hip flexors and squatting, the lengthening of the femurs for proper depth, steak as a supplement, and the use of percents for each and every discus throw... literally all at once. Dozens and dozens of practical hands-on demonstrations filled the next three hours. I begged Doug to keep notes — lots of notes.
I was exhausted after our meeting. Tom passed out on his bed. (A sixty year old professor and discus thrower shouldn't be made the exercise dummy for splits and overhead squats, but it's fun to watch.) Pavel and I agreed to do this again soon.
The next morning, I couldn't wait to talk to Doug and hear what he learned.
"Well, Doug?"
"It was cool," he shrugged.
"That's it?" His book could've been written just by recording the first half hour of the dialogue!
"Well, ya. I mean, it was cool."
There's an insight here: an important one. I couldn't get a handle on it until I went to the airport bookstore.
Queer Guys, Strong Guys, and Dan
At the bookstore I saw a book that illuminated the whole issue for me: Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.
Wait, give me a moment here. You see, Doug's problem wasn't that he didn't know anything. To attempt to quote Socrates, "He didn't know that he didn't know." Of course, the T-Nation audience might respond better to this exchange from the movie Mystery Men:
Captain Amazing: "I knew you couldn't change."
Casanova Frankenstein: "I knew you'd know that."
Captain Amazing: "Oh, I know that. And I knew you'd know I'd know you knew."
Casanova Frankenstein: "But I didn't. I only knew that you'd know that I knew. Did you know that?"
It occurred to me that Doug not only didn't know that he didn't know, but that he didn't know that he didn't know that he didn't know... Did you know that?
As I leafed through Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, my little grey cells (Poirot!) were working madly. That's it, I thought. That's what they all need! They need...
Strong Eye for the Weak Guy!
In Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, there are five guys who call themselves the "Fab Five." Each has a specialty, from culture to cooking to dressing. Each of them offers the hapless straight man a series of hints, ideas, and downright commands about what to do in each part of his life (except the bedroom, one would assume).
I decided that for guys like Doug, I needed to develop my own Fab Five. Simply, these five guys could walk Doug, and others, through the elemental steps of training and eating and everything else that he obviously missed. Doug has no idea that he has no idea about his lack of "know." But he's about to find out.
The Other Fab Five
Let me introduce you to the Strong Eye for the Weak GuyFab Five:
Dan'l St. Jean: Nutrition expert
DJ: Strength Guru
Coach Dan: Longevity in Training Consultant
XXX DJ: Intensity Specialist
Lord Daniel Arthur David: Culture of Body Recomposition Historian
And now, a few words for Doug from each.
Dan'l St. Jean: Nutrition Expert
Doug, you weigh 125 pounds. You need to, how shall I say this, eat. We have certain "rules," if you will:
1. Eat breakfast
2. Eat three meals a day, at least
3. Eat protein at every meal
4. Consume fiber at every meal
5. Take your fish oil capsules
And, yes, Doug, you need to take a protein supplement. Why? Because, you're going to be changing your strength training...
DJ: Strength Guru
Doug, I see that you bench and curl three days a week for your upper body. For your lower body you noted "I jog." Here's what I'd like you to do for a few weeks:
Day One
Back Squat: 5 sets of 5 to warm up
Front Squat: 5 sets of 2 with a weight you can handle
Pull-ups: one set to max
Bench Press: 1-2 sets of 8
Curls: 1-2 sets of 8
An abdominal exercise, your choice, to finish
Day Two
Back Squats: 1-2 sets of 8
Front Squats: 1-2 sets of 2
Pull-ups: 5 sets of "as many"
Bench Press: 1-2 sets of 8
Curls: 1-2 sets of 8
An abdominal exercise, your choice, for a nice set (not easy, but not hard)
Day Three
Back Squats: 1-2 sets of 8
Front Squats: 1-2 sets of 2
Pull-ups: 1-2 sets of half your max
Bench Press: 5 sets of 5
Curls: 5 sets of 12
An abdominal exercise to finish
Skip a day in between workouts, so maybe Monday, Wednesday, Friday/Saturday, or Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday/Sunday. On the four days you aren't in the gym, practice your squat form with a broomstick.
I want you to learn to squat right, so let's dive in. We'll stick with your bench/curl stuff until we can move you into a "better" program. Each workout, you do the same movements but with a focus workout. Obviously, Monday is legs, Wednesday is the pull-up, and you have an "upper body" day on Friday.
We'll soon move into deadlifts and swings and rows and shrugs and all kinds of other things, but let's give your body about two to three weeks to learn how to squat.
Coach Dan: Longevity in Training Consultant
So, Doug, your goal is to write a book about strength training for martial arts? A couple of things:
1. Master a martial art.
2. Compete at a high level. You don't have to necessarily win, but show up and compete.
3. Learn all the strength sports. The Olympic lifts are the snatch and clean & jerk. At some level, you should learn them. The powerlifts are the squat, bench press, and deadlift. You think you know that you know them, but, well, you don't.
There are some kettlebell moves you should learn: the snatch, the swing, the press, and a couple of the fun tricks like windmills, juggling, and bent press. It wouldn't hurt to try some of the strongman stuff, too: yoke carries, farmer bars, and sled drags.
4. You need to pick up some practical information on dealing with injuries, preparation for contests, and health and longevity issues. Get some basic knowledge of nutrition, recovery, and supplements (all kinds: legal, illegal, herbal, OTC, and snake oil).
Here's the thing: because of the Olympic cycle, I like to think in four-year blocks. If you experiment with a new idea, like a lift or a supplement, you have several options on how much time you want to take with each "experiment." If you try one new idea every four years, you have expanded your quiver of arrows by one... if it works.
However, if you change something or add something or try something different every month — every four weeks — you'll literally have 52 times more opportunities to improve. Well, some won't help of course, but you've only invested a month. Now, if you decide like me to add, subtract, change or modify something every two weeks, that gives you 104 chances to zip ahead of the rest of the crowd.
Moreover, you'll be keeping your brain involved and excited, which leads you to have a much better chance of thriving and surviving in strength sports.
XXX DJ: Intensity Specialist
Unfortunately, dear readers, when XXX DJ heard that Doug considered jogging to be a "leg workout," he snapped out of his chains, ate some bark, humiliated a Silverback in a way that appeared to be a breach of etiquette in the primate world, and sprinted away screaming the words "Go tell it to the Spartans."
We're under the impression that XXX DJ feels a wee bit frustrated at Doug's inability to figure things out for himself. We do regret sincerely any further destruction by Mr. XXX DJ or any agents working with him.
Lord Arthur David: Culture of Body Recomposition Historian
Douglas certainly missed the opportunity of a lifetime in the presence of this trio of mighty men. Much like Perceval in his quest for the Grail, Douglas seems to have grasped the goblet too soon and, being unprepared, failed in this first journey.
Douglas, like many of his peers, seems woefully ignorant of the roots of strength sports. Certainly, we don't need to have him start with Milo, but a brief look at some of the bigger and brighter names in our field would be appropriate.
Much has been written about Bruce Lee and his lifting regimes. Douglas should investigate those readings, available at bookstores everywhere. I would insist that he become comfortable with names like Arnold, Franco, and Zane. It wouldn't hurt for him to understand the early strongman contests going back to the last century.
Five minutes of research into the Olympic Lifts would at least give him names like Kono, Anderson, and Rigert. He should understand that "Kaz" is not a country at any rate.
It is much easier to stand on the shoulders of greatness than it is to reinvent centuries of knowledge.
Wrap-Up
You see, it's not a bad idea really. Guys like Doug — and guys like me — need to have some guidance along the path. My Fab Five might not make it to television, but you can bet you'll hear more from them in the future.
I know you know it.
When it comes to training, what would be a big NO in your gym?
Wear clothes from another team...wrong colors. Loud music. The basic stupid stuff you see everyday...
10)As a person that has spent a lot of his time with the Olympic lifts. Do you see the art of lifting becoming more popular in sports teams and main stream fitness industry?
Lifting, yes, but O lifting takes a lot of qualities and time that most people simply can't/won't/shouldn't address. It is the subject of my new DVD and book, "Intervention."
I hope this helps.
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